Author Topic: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?  (Read 7583 times)

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Offline Micah

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What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« on: March 05, 2007, 06:51:50 pm »
So, everything bit it within 6 months?

Promenade
Fun House @ 71st - Now our familiar tourney territory in Jenks
Fun & Games

What do you think went wrong?  Is the basic model for an arcade so flawed that they can't exist anymore?  What will it take to bring them back? Does anyone else miss these places as much as I do? 

This leads me to ask...
If you could open your dream arcade, what would it be like?

Offline Pinkie

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2007, 07:21:54 am »
At least we still have Incredible Pizza and Chuck E Cheese right?  :-\

And for your question: It would look like the sweetest arcade in the history of the world.

Offline Krisnaga

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 09:50:38 am »
speaking as a former employee of incredible pizza, i feel that it is my duty to point out the incredible suckage of the establishment  all the games they have involve either bludgeoning small animals with a hammer, kid versions of casino games... or really retarded knock offs of dance dance revolution.
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Offline Micah

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 10:16:52 am »
speaking as a former employee of incredible pizza, i feel that it is my duty to point out the incredible suckage of the establishment  all the games they have involve either bludgeoning small animals with a hammer, kid versions of casino games... or really retarded knock offs of dance dance revolution.

Didn't you used to work at Fun House, too?

For my intents and purposes, I don't consider Chuck E. Cheese or Incredible Pizza to be arcades.  Chuck E Cheese used to be tolerable; they had a sweet Simpsons and TMNT cab, but they sent them off for demolition. @$*&%@!!!!!!! Now, these places are primarily redemption games geard towards the youngins.  I despise that crap.  Sure, it has a place for a lot of people, but what about people like us?

What is it gonna take to bring arcades back?  Where did they all go wrong within such a short time?

Pinkie, tell me about the sweetest arcade in the world.  It might cheer me  up  :-\

Offline LONEWOLF2021

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2007, 10:16:59 am »
Lol my dream arcade would have all the great classics but also with all the sweet new ones. But since I have been on a controller since I was around 5 years old I would have to say gotta stick to my first love. But there is always time for a lil arcade action.
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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 02:15:13 pm »
I think the reason all of the arcades in Tulsa bit it is because of the owners.  I think they all tried to cater to the "I like driving and shooting" crowd, and not to us.  The ones who actually play video games everyday.  I do think arcades need some drivers and light guns, but they also need some beat'em ups, and vertical and horizontal shooters.  And maybe some good classics too.  When was the last time you saw a Dig Dug or a Defender or an Asteroids in an arcade?  And, using Funhouse as an example, why the ♥♥♥♥♥ don't they have more fighters?  They have two.  DOA and Soul Calibur 3.  Which are fine.  But I don't consider a 3d fighter to be a real fighter.  They seriously can't track down a Street Fighter?  Or a Capcom vs Snk or something?  I'm not even asking for off the wall stuff like Samurai Showdowns or anything.  Just the run of the mill 2d, whip ♥♥♥ kind.  That's what I want in my dream arcade.  Elevator Action and Last Blade 2.

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 04:24:14 pm »
I think the reason all of the arcades in Tulsa bit it is because of the owners.  I think they all tried to cater to the "I like driving and shooting" crowd, and not to us.  The ones who actually play video games everyday.  I do think arcades need some drivers and light guns, but they also need some beat'em ups, and vertical and horizontal shooters.  And maybe some good classics too.  When was the last time you saw a Dig Dug or a Defender or an Asteroids in an arcade?  And, using Funhouse as an example, why the ♥♥♥♥♥ don't they have more fighters?  They have two.  DOA and Soul Calibur 3.  Which are fine.  But I don't consider a 3d fighter to be a real fighter.  They seriously can't track down a Street Fighter?  Or a Capcom vs Snk or something?  I'm not even asking for off the wall stuff like Samurai Showdowns or anything.  Just the run of the mill 2d, whip ♥♥♥ kind.  That's what I want in my dream arcade.  Elevator Action and Last Blade 2.

Uhh - the owners cater to what make money as well.  No business can throw money out on that which does not at least hold it's own.

And before you throw Funhouse under the bus like that, remember - before they moved, they had SEVEN PLUS fighting games.

Soul Calibur 1 and 2, 2 machines for 2.  Tekken.  GGXX.  A few NEO GEO titles.  DOA.  MVC2.  And at least one more that I can't remember the name of.

Not to mention the Spawn, other mass fighting games they messed around with.  I wonder why those other games didn't make the move...  I'd go out on a limb and say - no support.  People complain about not having all the games they want, but often don't support the games that are there.  Dunno, would like to hear from Dr X on that.


And now that you've got me going?  Fun & Games had 4+ fighting games before they closed down - I KNOW - because I'd gone in there and seen at least that many on casual glance...

So - you wanna ask me why arcades have had problems?

Gamers playing consoles only.

My view is a bit less extreme than it used to be.  I used to play arcade only.  It's only because SC2 went mainly console and SC3 went console ONLY that I even own a console fighting game.

...I'd ask..  Can anyone else say the same?

A big problem the arcades have - is that gamers rather sit at home and play on their console against their 3 friends, vs getting out and playing mass opponents in an arcade. 

Sure - it can cost more to play in the arcade vs a one time purchase price - well sometimes.  But the competition is also better, and well...  If the mentality of AC only / a true balance of AC and console play existed?  Then maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Before I really said anything further, I'd be interested in views from owners / people running those places. 
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I will make the last thing I say for now this: One of the MANY reasons I felt I had to start OKgamers.com?  It was near impossible to find any SC3 competition once it went console only.  Why?  From my perspective, gained from playing SC1, and 2 seriously, and going to every extreme to find competition?

Console SC players were lazy and most of them rather fight their few local friends than get out and play.

And those you could get out?  Once they played someone better than them; we never saw them again.

I know not all gamers can be THAT fickle, but years ago, with SC1 and 2 - that's how it was


Now - the problem is just GETTING to them.  To let them KNOW about events, tournaments, etc.  That's one of the reason OKgamers exists - so that people that are true gamers - that don't go out, and see flyers...  Can be reached.  We'll see in time, if gamers help each other and spread the word, and if this all actually works...  Or if we are just all too lazy, and won't even help ourselves lol.



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Offline Pr1m0

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 06:20:33 pm »
i work at incredible pizza and everyone there management are assholes

Offline Micah

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 06:34:34 pm »
Sok,  I agree with you on a lot of things.  Many arcades, like fun house, seem to have a very limited selection of games.  However, they seem to be limited on space.  Even if a lot of it is wasted, I would hope they're doing the best they can with their given space.  Of course, I'd love to see an old Asteroids or Tempest (I have a creepy fetish for vector games) in a local arcade, but that isn't likely to happen.  I'm not necessarily saying it won't make money because I really think it will, but I'm saying many owners aren't willing to diversify their lineup or give up square footage for the cause. 

I'd love to see a local arcade take a stand and try something radically different.  As a result, we might discover something we never thought possible.  It just bugs me that all the arcades are the exact same.  Fun House and Fun & Games seemed to back and forth each other all the time.  FH would get one game, then F&G would.  F&G would get a game, then FH would.  After that, they'd both get rid of them at the exact same time.  I never understood this.  How could they possible benefit from that?  If someone knows, please explain.

If you wanna rock some Last Blade 2, hit me up *points to signature* - and Elevator Action came out on Wii VC yesterday.  Go get your fix.  You're not going to find it anywhere else anytime soon  :-\

Saif, what neo geo titles did Fun House have?  I might have been living out of town during that time.  Fill me in.  Also, don't you think it's worth it for Fun House to have as diverse a lineup as possible?  I understand the downsize and maybe even the reasons for it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't hang on to more of their games.  Are you telling me they don't have the space for more of their old games?  There is plenty of unused and poorly used space in that facility.  With a more diverse lineup, they'd have more diverse clientele. 

To counter your point that no business can throw money out on that which does not at least hold it's own, it's worth noting that almost every business does just that.  Businesses take losses on certain things all the time just to get certain people in the door for specific reasons that would benefit that company.  I understand your logic and reasoning, but there is also plenty of logic and reasoning behind taking a loss on certain things.  If arcades would offer incentives, maybe at a loss, they could attract new people and earn beyond that initial loss.

Just from reading this forum, I think there is still plenty of demand for those fighters that Tulsa's arcades used to have.  Would you guys NOT play SC2, Tekken, MvC2,  Cvs2, Virtua Fighter, or GGXX if it was at an arcade?  So, why isn't this crowd being catered to?  Regarding earnings for these machines, I'd play these titles so much more on location if they were actually maintained.  If arcades would take the 10 minutes and $2 required to replace an actuator on a joystick,  they'd receive all kinds of additional plays.  I wanted to play the Capcom Vs. SNK at Fun & Games for YEARS, but the joysticks were mangled bits of crap - for YEARS.  They were NEVER replaced or maintained.  That cheap fix is crucial for these kinds of games - another factor that relates back to management.  They felt they could just sit back in a room and let the money pour into the machines.  ::)

I agree that a problem arcades face is the fact that many gamers like playing 4 player games at home.  However, I don't think they all prefer that to having fun in a social environment where competition is encouraged and embraced.  I feel that's the biggest obstacle arcades face.  They need to make every effort possible to make their arcade more than just an arcade.  It has to be more than a room filled with games.  People need to know and remember each other.  It needs to be fun and accessible to many different groups.    They need to have a reason to be pulled off the couch. 

From what I can tell, nobody seems to be making that effort...

...


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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2007, 12:07:03 am »
This thread cracks me up. I particularly love the comments about Inedible Pizza. Such a 'Christian' company. I guess they are about as christian as Sean Hannity would act at a Hillary Clinton fundraiser... but I digress.

Micah, I agree with what you'd like an arcade to be, but here is the best explaination I can offer.

Point one I'd like to make- Arcade fighting games, as of right now, are DEAD. A piece of history, much like sock hops and hoola-hoop tournies. Back in the day, an owner could place a Mortal Combat II machine in the corner of a dusty old truck stop, and rake in the cash. But then something happened. The KI games kept it going for awhile, and Tekken stayed strong until Soul Calibur hit the scene... but the writing was already on the wall by then.

People just stopped rushing to the arcade to play these games. As a result, Midway, who's last Arcade fighter was MK IV, folded up shop altogether, and now only produce console titles.  The street fighter series seemed to break into anime sects or something, and each title we put out there only appealed to a select group of maybe 5-10 players.

At the old mega-Fun House on 71st, we still had a large budget, and purchased a brand-new Tekken 5/with card system and PSII jacks the day it came out. That game failed to out earn the older Soul Calibur II, and then dropped off so bad it got to about $90 in the cash-box per week. Compare that to $900 in the box of our Initial 'D' twin racer, and Namco Midnight Tune, each with a similiar card system.

We had an Ultracade with 3-dozen classic games, including two classic street-fighter titles. That game made $15 a week! I'm not joking.

Marvel vs. Capcom, and Guilty gear each pulled about $50 a week, compared to DDR 8th mix making about $700.

We had many titles, but they all failed exept for the Soul Calibur series, which was an anomaly-largely due to owner involvement, because most everywhere else in the nation, Soul Calibur wasn't fairing any better. This is why Namco went straight to console with SC III, then re-released it in arcade form later.

So what has killed fighting games, and/or the arcade as we knew it in general? 

1)Consoles nowdays rock. I remember rushing out to buy MKII when it came out on console-only to be sadly let down because the gameplay was not 'arcade quality.' Well technology has caught up, and now the console versions are usually the same or better than the arcade experience.

2)Hardcore gaming has radically shifted to online play. Most of the guys who would have a generation ago spent every night in an arcade trying to master street fighter, are now running around in coordinated raids with their friends in 'World of Warcraft' adventures.

3)This is Oklahoma specific--Casinos have devasted the other entertainment outlets all over Tulsa. This means that I have a limited budget now, and when I make a decision to purchase a new game, it has to be the right decision. That is why we sold our Tekken 5 after just a few months, because we couldn't afford to have a $5,000 bomb on our hands, we needed that money for a DDR upgrade, or some more kiddie games. The days of milk and honey for Family Entertainment Operators ended when all the adults quit coming and started hitting Cherokee Casino instead. We had to focus most of our resources on birthday parties and general attractions like bumber cars.

Point two: At our Riverwalk Location, we have all the classic games that still earn money. They are called Mrs. Pac Man, and Galaga. This combo game, which many of you are probably familiar with, will out-gross 5-to-1 any Tempest, Centipede, Asteroids--which was in our Ultracade BTW--or any other classic title.

Point three, and this wraps it up, is that the common customer in a modern arcade (like mine) is usually some guy who either is on a date, or with his family, and has decided to kill some time because he just ate dinner at the Riverwalk, and the movie doesn't start for another hour.

This guy is typically looking for something that will easily entertain him, like a driver, or a shooter. He doesn't want to sit down and learn the intricate fighting system of Soul Calibur or Tekken. And that, my friends, is America today. People are lazy when it comes to being entertained, and they aren't like you guys, they aren't 'hardcore' about any of it. As I've already pointed out, most hardcore players are locked in their rooms playing Warcraft.

To those of you who are still hardcore arcade players, I am glad to know that you are there, but trust me, you are a rare individual, demographically speaking.

I try to have a title or two there for you as well, and if enough players petition me for a certain game, then I will buy it--which is how I ended up bringing back Initial D to the Riverwalk. That is also why we still have Soul Calibur III tournaments every month, even though the turnout is rather weak, to be honest.

I still want the arcade to be your home, but you have to, as a group, let me know what game will do this for you, not just throw out some random old titles.

Rumour has it Ultracades have gotten better, maybe this could be my next arcade purchase. Or is there a new 2D out there--with the potential to gain a following-- that I'm unaware of?






« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 12:12:57 am by Fun House on the River »

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2007, 01:07:31 am »

Funhouse / Rod - I appreciate the response - and well frankly - the honesty.  People rarely get out there and do that, and I thank you.  I rather know the REAL truth, than have all this conjecture thrown about.

To counter your point that no business can throw money out on that which does not at least hold it's own, it's worth noting that almost every business does just that.  Businesses take losses on certain things all the time just to get certain people in the door for specific reasons that would benefit that company.  I understand your logic and reasoning, but there is also plenty of logic and reasoning behind taking a loss on certain things.  If arcades would offer incentives, maybe at a loss, they could attract new people and earn beyond that initial loss.

Just from reading this forum, I think there is still plenty of demand for those fighters that Tulsa's arcades used to have.  Would you guys NOT play SC2, Tekken, MvC2,  Cvs2, Virtua Fighter, or GGXX if it was at an arcade?  So, why isn't this crowd being catered to?  Regarding earnings for these machines, I'd play these titles so much more on location if they were actually maintained.  If arcades would take the 10 minutes and $2 required to replace an actuator on a joystick,  they'd receive all kinds of additional plays.  I wanted to play the Capcom Vs. SNK at Fun & Games for YEARS, but the joysticks were mangled bits of crap - for YEARS.  They were NEVER replaced or maintained.  That cheap fix is crucial for these kinds of games - another factor that relates back to management.  They felt they could just sit back in a room and let the money pour into the machines.  ::)

I agree that a problem arcades face is the fact that many gamers like playing 4 player games at home.  However, I don't think they all prefer that to having fun in a social environment where competition is encouraged and embraced.  I feel that's the biggest obstacle arcades face.  They need to make every effort possible to make their arcade more than just an arcade.  It has to be more than a room filled with games.  People need to know and remember each other.  It needs to be fun and accessible to many different groups.    They need to have a reason to be pulled off the couch. 

From what I can tell, nobody seems to be making that effort...

Micah - on space, why bother with it if it's not even going to pay it's electricity bill?  Also - there's something to be said for a nice, open area.  I rather have open area, than old worthless games - if it's worth it's salt, that's another story, but if it's not...  Rather have the room.

And speaking of room, and "anyone making an effort" - what do you think Funhouse has been doing - allowing OKgamers to have tournaments there?  I mean that's a HUGE step towards combining console and arcade types first off, and second off - very forward thinking.  I'd wager the point - without Funhouse's support, OKgamers wouldn't even be where it is today.  That was foresight, and 100% direct support from Funhouse towards the cause of improving Oklahoma - that got this all started really.

Also - Rod's right.  "Hardcore" gamers are not very much of the population...  I'd put a challenge out there though.  We breed more hardcore players - when they know we exist...  If we were at the arcade, playing solid like back in the day with Soul Calibur 1 - then those 3 or 4 hardcore players, would create a following of 30+.  The second people stopped showing up regularly, was the second hardcore players stopped being brought into the fold.

And - risk?  Is something that fuels the new business owner.  However, once you've been there, and done that - throwing money at a game that won't survive - and you know better?  Is the definition of insanity.  Doing the same thing, expecting a change...

I've found a motto that definitely keeps me honest - when it comes to all these things.

To quote Eureka seveN - "Don't beg for things. Do it yourself, or else you won't get anything!" 

Get it by your own hands.

If you want change in Oklahoma - go get it.  If you want Arcades to improve, find a game that's worthy of that, and suggest it - with proof to back it up.  Heck - I'd love to have a VF5 machine - but I don't think there are enough fighting gamers around to support it, and I won't suggest something that'll only end in failure.  You guys want your 2d / deversity?  Find a game that is worthy of having, and a crowd that'll support it - and suggest it.  Support it.  Get it by your own hands.



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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2007, 01:44:56 pm »
That MAME-ish Ultracade thing doesn't count.  It's not the real deal.  It may have "technically" been Street Fighter and Asteroids and all of those others, but it sure didn't "feel" like it.  It's impossible to emulate Asteroids or any other Vector game.  Monitors today just can't do it.  And you haven't played a Vector game until it burns streaks accross your eyes when you blink. 

And as for not holding it's salt?  The one game may not, but I used to go to Funhouse specifically for Snk vs Capcom Chaos.  I might only put in a couple bucks in that particular machine, but I'd still spend at least $10.00 in tokens while I was there.  Now though, there is no reason for me to want to go out.  No game will make me want to go to Jenks.  I go to the tourneys now, and get the tokens, but I always end up giving the tokens to a DDR kid or something.  I TRY to use them...but I just don't want to.

Offline Micah

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2007, 01:56:15 pm »
Fun House/Rod, I can't think of anyone that could have contributed more beneficial information to this conversation.  As a credible source, I'm glad you're part of this.  I won't argue that fighting game revenue has probably decreased in recent years, you would know better than anyone, but I will argue that they are still a very important part of the arcade.  In my opinion, those 5-10 people you mention are still an important part of your clientele.  Specifically, a few of those 5-10 people were me and my best friends.  Those games were the sole reason we regularly visited Fun House.  As a result from our recurring visits, we played additional games such as Air Hockey, Time Crisis, Billiards, Galaga, Beatmania, and even that Ultracade.  Even though the fighters might not have earned what many operators would hope for, the real value of those games was beyond the coin box.  The value was in the halo effect it provided for nearby areas of revenue. Primarily, this was the basis for my argument.  In an effort to earn additional users and revenue, many operators should consider the niche markets and take a small loss.

Regarding the Ultracade, I, as well as many I talk to, don't consider it the same experience.  It's an emulation on many different levels.  A player couldn't appreciate the original sideart, controls, cabinet, or even screen position.  I did enjoy playing certain games like Tapper or the Mega Man PB games on there, but I can understand why this cabinet wasn't as profitable as one would hope.  I lost countless tokens in that machine, and many times, like most computer-based hardware, the OS and interface would lock up on me.  Also, it's very difficult to emulate classics like Tempest and Asteroids.  Without the original control scheme or vector components, the gameplay experience is entirely different.  In my opinion, it's just just not the same without the vector monitor, wheel, or five button Asteroids control panel.  It's worth noting that I did appreciate the fact that the cabinet was there, and I tried to play it every time I visited.  Apparently, I was the only one  :'(.  Like you said, hopefully the new revisions are much better, but regardless of their improvements, they will never be the same.  For me, it's about experiencing the authentic game cabinet the way it was meant to be played.  That's why I'm willing to drop money.  If I wanted to just play Asteroids, I could do that on my phone.

Additionally, I agree on your three points.
On a technical level, I understand it is very hard to compete with consoles. However, as your higher earning games show, there are plenty of unique experiences you can provide that many players can't emulate at home. 

I'll have to take your word for it on the Galaga/Ms. Pac combo being the end all be all.  I don't know what a real Centipede would earn on location.  I don't know if anyone does.  I have yet to see one  :-\.  Either way, my point still remains that, outside of the actual titles available, there is still a unique experience only available at the arcade.  An experience that online gameplay or consoles can never have.  For me, it was being with friends and making new ones over a mutual and fun hobby.

The casinos have hurt many entertainment outlets in Tulsa.  I don't think anyone can deny that notion.  I'm happy you've landed such a great location.  The situations you speak of are hopefully very common because of your location.  Most of the time, arcade games are an impulse buy, and I hope the Riverwalk is very good to you for years to come.

Considering your recent situation and changes, I honestly think you're doing a very good job keeping up with the times.  Kudos to you for being open to our comments and ideas.  Thanks for supporting Saif and his OKGamers efforts.  You benefit all of us, and I appreciate it.  I'm very thankful you continue to pull through and provide the experience that nobody else can.  If I wasn't so proud and convinced that you're doing a great job, I wouldn't be so eager to work for you.

Saif, hopefully I answered some of your questions in my response to Rod.  For the record, arcade games don't take up nearly as much electricity as one might expect.  The benefit from a diverse collection outweighs the marginal cost of power, in my opinion.  I know and acknowledge that Fun House is making an effort to change the way we play.

My "...'s" at the end of my post were my way of showing some sarcasm and acknowledgement for what this community IS doing.  I think what you're doing is great for our community.  This is why I continually voice my opinions and suggestions to you.  I'm down for "breeding" more hardcore players that share our same hobby.  It only starts with a few, then numbers increase exponentially.  I've tried to explain that in my previous posts regarding playing new games each month and building this community. You know I'm ready and willing to help you in all the ways we have talked about.  You and Rod are providing the only movement for the cause I'm truly passionate about.  In thanks, I'm going to do what I can to help, too.

Offline Micah

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2007, 01:57:36 pm »
You haven't played a Vector game until it burns streaks accross your eyes when you blink. 

I suppose that's where my fetish comes in  :-\

Fun House on the River

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Re: What Happened to Tulsa's Arcade Scene?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2007, 12:39:06 pm »
Thanks for your comments, guys. I'll take them into consideration as we grow.

For starters, I'll skip the notion of buying the new Ultracade. Still waiting for 2D fighter reccomendations.

So far, I've got 1 vote for the return of SNK vs. Capcom chaos, although this is from someone who considers us "in Jenks." We're actually JUUUUST across the River at 96th & Riverside. Its still South Tulsa fellas, accept it.

Anyone else? Feel free to make suggestions anytime. If its in a different thread, and I don't notice it, then Saif will hopefully bring it to my attention.

You guys can also email me your thoughts at [email protected]