Seeding in Tournaments - Why it's done, etc

[Riiot93]

HI!  X A here, splitting off a discussion so we can keep a tournament thread clear, and keep this conversation for future reference.

Original thread - the Tulsa TCC tournament - http://www.okgamers.com/forums/index.php/topic,2606.0.html

And now for the conversation.

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We should have an Online Tournament for seeding for the Halo 3 2v2. There will probably be a lot of people there that have never played at an OK event. It would be best to give everyone a fair chance of seeding.

[X_A]

We should have an Online Tournament for seeding for the Halo 3 2v2. There will probably be a lot of people there that have never played at an OK event. It would be best to give everyone a fair chance of seeding.

Solid idea, however we already stated we'd pull seeds from the HxC event - to help promote a local company that does a lot of events, as well as pulling from a solid source of people that'll show up again for sure.



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[Riiot93]

I'm just saying, there will be no point of even doing seeding with the amount of people that will probably show that have not even been to a tournament yet. Also, if you want to help the HxC people, just call it the HxC Halo 3 2v2 and let's just keep 4v4s and 2v2s separate. If I am not mistaken, there has not been a HxC 2v2 tournament yet. So, let's just start the 2v2s fresh. Have an Online Tournament to find proper seedings for the 2v2 teams in Oklahoma, then base the next 2v2 tournament off of the results of this tournament. Thank You.

[2AMPd]

there actually has been an HxC 2v2 tourney

[X_A]

I'm just saying, there will be no point of even doing seeding with the amount of people that will probably show that have not even been to a tournament yet. Also, if you want to help the HxC people, just call it the HxC Halo 3 2v2 and let's just keep 4v4s and 2v2s separate. If I am not mistaken, there has not been a HxC 2v2 tournament yet. So, let's just start the 2v2s fresh. Have an Online Tournament to find proper seedings for the 2v2 teams in Oklahoma, then base the next 2v2 tournament off of the results of this tournament. Thank You.

I'm not sure what your perspective of this event is, nor what HxC, OKgamers and what TCC brings to the table.

HxC - has had many Halo events, and is pretty much one of THE most loyal businesses we have backing the OKgamers concept to date.  As a result, and needing seeding, we offered them the chance to be the source for this 2v2 for their next event. 

TCC - is a great venue, and provides a safe and solid location for parents to trust, and even a location that has public transportation to it - something RARE in Tulsa.  So, having it there is an increased chance for people to show up to a tournament, not a negating factor.  Also, for those that drive - it's RIGHT off the highway, a matter of blocks, and as it's a college, sports plenty of free parking.

OKgamers - has probably hosted hundreds of tournaments by now, and well, when we throw an event, we get people out there.  ESPECIALLY when you consider all the marketing we are doing and oh yea sponsorship that leads to tons of FREE STUFF for both the winners of tournaments, and just those that attended to have a good time.  The last time an event went through this much trouble, and someone who is an OKgamers TO - Furyswrath - threw a tournament like this - one year ago - and had over 100 people show up.  So.  uhm.  I don't get why you think we are having an issue of people showing up.


As for "Fresh seeding" - actually going off the HxC's event is in many ways fresh seeding.  The Oklahomies had never lost in OK - so if we HADN'T gone off HxC - it would have been guaranteed first seed - as well, they had won everything to date.  Also, if we hadn't specifically stated it was coming from the HxC event, their one lost would still not be enough to drop them to second seed as they are now...  So - once again, we are fresh.


I'm really not sure where this strong online seeding concept is coming from, but OKgamers sticks by it's word - we told gamers the seed would come from HxC - we won't retract for this event.  If you wish us to do another H3 event later on with a different seed info source, we'd be open to it, but really HxC does more with online tournaments and seeding than OKgamers has lately.  OKgamers - is just gamer volunteers.  Our Halo volunteers - not especially active as of late.  ...thus we have less reliable people and hardware to even host a H3 event off of...  I hope this has helped?

You mentioned before you had told everyone you know about this tournament - if you feel alone in this - we assure you, you are not.

If you take just the base numbers from the Facebook event alone: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/event.php?eid=328711205432&index=1

50 people guaranteed - of which, I'm sure, a majority are Halo players.  If we factor in the maybe's, that's over 120 people that show interest.

And let's not forget to factor in the laziness of gamers, ESPECIALLY HALO PLAYERS - who never want to pre-reg or mention they are coming till they are there lol.


Anyway - we are gearing up for this to be our biggest event of January ever, and one of our biggest events for the entire year, hope everyone continues to spread the word, and remember, we haven't even BEGAN to tell you some of the sponsors we've snagged for this   Oh, and we'll be working on getting a pre-reg up for this soon, so please keen an eye out for that, and for now - please use the Facebook Event for pre-reg too!



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[Riiot93]

I'm not doubting that a lot of people will show up, I am just saying that this is one of the first tournaments in Tulsa in a long time. I know for a fact that a lot of the people that will be there from Tulsa probably have not even been to a tournament in Oklahoma yet, so they will all automatically receive a last place seeding. But it is irrelevant. It just does not seem right to base 2v2 seedings off how individuals did at a 4v4 tournament. So, if DrViper teams with some random, he automatically gets a first place seeding? What if Hummp teams with some random, does he also get a first place seeding? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I am honestly confused. I know I will show up and get a last place seeding because I have only been to two tournaments and did not place well at either. I just want to know how it will go down based on 4v4 seedings.

[X_A]

To date, unless we have TV and serious advertising for the event - we RARELY have a majority of people in a tournament not be familiar with a tournament we've done before.  I know you've been telling your friends, and yes, we are hoping for plenty of new people, but there are also a lot of people who have been to tournaments, and would be fine?...

In the end - I think you perhaps have misunderstood 'seeding' in the terms I'm using it?  It's not A BAD THING to be a non-seeded player.  And yes, that's how we do it - certain people / groups get seeded because the've won events - and then there is everyone else.

What happens - worse case - if 'seeding is done wrong'?  Someone REALLY good - but unknown, goes up against one of the top seeds first thing.  One advances, one goes into the losers bracket - as it's double elimination.

...now in losers bracket - and as a result of the poor seeding - the loser of said match rips through the losers bracket, where normally people who aren't as advanced at the game would get one to two more sets before being eliminated.

A tough tournament?  Yea, that does happen.  But 'upsetting top players' - especially in this state so far - is very rare, in any game.  We see most any solid ranked advancing ahead of time, usually at least.

Not going to say it can't happen.  However, Riiot.  It's a tournament.  A competition.  A chance to PROVE your the best.  "bad seeding" as you've said or non-seeding as it is - only means they get to potentially PLAY THE BEST before they get knocked out by other 'best' - so man, it's a great thing in many ways.  It's always about perspective there though.

Throwing an online tournament - is no ultimate fairness.  Who says your good players will be available when we throw it?  Who says they'll even all be able to play?  Who says once we go through all that effort of an online pre-qualifier - that they'd even show up to TCC?  (That statement might seem odd to you, but we know PLENTY of gamers that stay locked away, or cannot travel 2 blocks to a tournament in their own city - so online to determine IRL results isn't something as guaranteed successful as you may think.)

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And maybe the whole problem is - you've gotten 'bad brackets' in the past, and feel that's unfair?  I don't know the events you went to, and whether or not they were OKgamers - but "seeding" isn't some way to screw new players - it's THE EXACT OPPOSITE.  Sure, for the few that go up against the few that get seeded, it can seem guaranteed loss - but they would have met them in the brackets one way or another, whether that's loss win loss, or win loss loss.  And, once in losers, will face much easier competition.  That won't happen without seeding - good players will double out decent players AUTOMATICALLY, in both brackets, right after the other.  We don't want that, so we seed, and give players a better chance in losers bracket.

It's a standard, and we follow it to help gamers have a better experience - afterall we are gamers too, and we don't like to double out if we can avoid it either.

For TCC - we've stated we'd pull the seeding from HxC - and we'll stick with that.

As for your concern about online seeding - if you think we can improve our current approach feel free to start a thread in the tournament planning forums - so we can further discuss this, otherwise we are just going around and around on a thread that's about a tournament already locked in, not planning changes that would go against what we've already said we are doing.  As stated before, we GET gamers to our events?  Because we stick to our word, and use the fairest set of rules a games community uses.  So, no online seeding discussion is going to help this event.



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[Riiot93]

Okay fair enough. After seeing your side I completely agree. I will be at the tournament regardless. I just lost my teammate, we were 16th on GB doubles, but he ditched me for another guy in Arizona. Anyway, if anyone needs a teammate for the Halo 3 2v2 please add me. My tag is Riiot Fail. I have a 48 in MLG, but this account is only a 44 in MLG because I have not played much. Also, we should do a 1v1 tournament too. That would be awesome. But anyway, add me if you want to run games.

[X_A]

Make sure you check / post in the FPS for a teammate, as that's where alot of FPS types are gonna be.

And know it's not necessarily "my side" lol, I don't get that kinda credit - it's the perspective built up by all of us over the years, ya know? 



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[Ravus918]

What is everybody ranting about this seedig stuff? If were gona need to go though other tornys to get seeded into this one im gona go ahead and back out. Cant you just walk in the day of and register like normal?

[Jesus]

What is everybody ranting about this seedig stuff? If were gona need to go though other tornys to get seeded into this one im gona go ahead and back out. Cant you just walk in the day of and register like normal?

Yeah, you can just come and register and play. What they are talking about with "seeding" is the starting position in the tournement bracket. The teams that are the favorites to win, if they win all of their matches, won't have to fight until later in the tournement. The idea behind it is that if the top 2 teams come to this tournement, and fight each other in the first round, one of those teams will be going to losers. By seeding,it allows the less likely to win teams a better chance of moving up through the losers bracket. It's like the NCAA March Madness.

[X_A]

Yes, and while Riiot was technically on subject, the degree we went to was too thorough, and has started throwing people off, so I've split off the conversation so it can be a resource, and so that we can keep the Tourny thread clear, and easy to understand.



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[Ravus918]

Ok thanks, that was startin look more complicated then I was willing to go for. Ive been spreading the word and given people the heads up, cant wait to catch you guys there.